>> Hello. This is Chris Rodriguez, and welcome to the ABLE national resource center's webinar on changes to ABLE in 2018. Before we get started on this webinar, I want to take care of some housekeeping items. The audio for today's webinar is being broadcast through your computer. Please make sure your speakers are turned on and your headphones are plugged in. You can control the audio broadcast via the audio broadcast panel. If you accidently close the panel, you can reopen by going to the communicate menu at the top of the screen and choosing join audio broadcast. If you do not have some capabilities on your computer or would prefer to listen by phone, the dial-in information is on the right hand of your screen. Real-time captioning is provided during this webinar. The captions can be found in media viewer panel, which appears in the lower right-hand corner of the webinar platform. If you would like to make the media viewer panel larger, you can minimize other panels such as chat, Q&A and/or participants. Please use the question-and-answer box to submit any questions you have during the webinar, and we will direct those questions accordingly during the Q&A portion. If you are listening by phone and not logged into the webinar, you may also ask questions by emailing questions to kauchenbach@ndi-inc.org. Please know that this evening's webinar is being recorded, and the materials will be placed on the ABLE national resource center website at the following link. And we typically try and get those recordings out no later than a week after the actual presentation. So hopefully by next Thursday, you should be able to access that via the ABLE national resource center website. If you experience any technical difficulties during the webinar, please use the chat box to send a message to host NDI admin or you may also email kauchenbach@ndi-inc.org. Okay. So, I am extremely excited to be presenting today on such an important issue that is the changes that will be implemented in 2018 regarding ABLE. I am extremely excited to have such an esteemed group of panelists, consisting of Michael Morris, executive director of the national disability institute, J.J. Hanley, director of the Illinois ABLE program, Stuart Spielman, senior policy advisor and counsel for autism speaks, David Bell, who is the managing director of the Oregon ABLE savings plan, Marty Ford, who's the senior executive officer for public policy at The Arc of the United States, and Mary Morris, who is the CEO of Virginia529 and ABLEnow. So we have a pretty packed agenda today. I just want to go over it briefly. We're going to talk a little bit about ABLE history and some of the basic components that govern ABLE accounts. And then we're going to get into really the substance of the webinar today, which is going to concentrate on the 2008 team changes to ABLE. We've broken those down into four subsections. The first will be the 2018 increased annual contribution limit, followed by the ability to rollover funds from a 529 college savings account into an ABLE account, then we will discuss having new new access to the retirement savings contributions credit, which is also known as the saver's credit. And lastly, we'll also discuss the ability for beneficiaries to contribute additional contributions and to their ABLE account as a result of employment. Lastly, we'll give a little bit of information about the ABLE National Resource Center, and then we're going to take some questions and answers facilitated by myself to the panelists. And, of course, at the very end, we will have an opportunity to take some questions from you all that hopefully you will be submitting throughout the duration of the webinar. Okay. So let's go ahead and get started. So I want to make sure everybody has a general understanding of ABLE so that we can all appreciate the primary content that we'll be discussing today. So let's start out with ABLE history. So what exactly is ABLE? Well, ABLE is the Stephen Beck Jr. Achieving a Better Life Experience Act, and it amends the federal tax code to add what's called section 529 A. So if ever you hear during the presentation or during your research or what have you, ABLE accounts referred to as 529 A, they mean the exact same thing. Don't let that throw you off. That's just the part of the federal tax code that they're actually located in. So there's no difference between a 529 A and an ABLE account. So these ABLE accounts, what they do in their most basic sense is they create a new option for eligible people with disabilities to save money and a tax-exempt account that may be used for qualified disability expenses while at the same time, protecting their eligibility for federal public benefits. You'll note that those different things are underlined on this slide, we're going to dig into those because, obviously, the definitions of those and what those mean are a particular interest and very important to being involved in ABLE accounts and ABLE programs. So ABLE became law in December of 2014 after nearly a decade of federal, state and local advocacy. By the time it made it through the congressional process, it had 85% of the entire U.S. Congress's congressional support. And what it did, it authorized, but it did not require states to establish these programs. That being said, I think as a result of just the vast importance of providing this opportunity to people with disabilities, we've seen over 45 states establish ABLE related legislation culminating in the very first ABLE account being available through the Ohio program, who was the first to launch an ABLE program in June of 2016. Since then, 30 states plus DC have launched ABLE programs, of which the majority of those programs are actually enrolling people nationwide, meaning provided that you meet the eligibility criteria that we'll briefly discuss today, you can enroll regardless of where you happen to live. Okay. Let's talk a little bit about ABLE basics. So these are going to be things that are going to be consistent across all ABLE programs no matter if you're interested in the Virginia plan or the Oregon plan or the Ohio plan or the Nebraska plan. These are things that are found within the federal law that will remain consistent no matter which program you choose. So what are some of these basic characteristics? Well, you need to know that there are eligibility criteria related to opening an ABLE account that speak to, one, the age in which the individual first experienced his or her disability and related to the severity of that disability. We'll dig into that in a little bit. Also, it's important to know that an eligible individual is not obligated to enroll in their state of residence. Again, we talked about this a couple of slides back. So as an example, if I live in Texas and I meet the eligibility criteria, regardless of if Texas has a program or not, I can still enroll in other programs that are enrolling people nationally, of which is the majority of those programs. So just because your state does not have a program right now, it doesn't mean that you can't take advantage of the benefits associated with being an ABLE account owner. Additionally, the designated beneficiary, who's the person with a disability, is the account owner. And this is very important to understand. That being said, if that particular individual either does not have the capacity to oversee their account or if they just choose that they don't want to oversee their account, they want some help, there are three types of individuals that can have what's called signature authority and basically exercise authority over the account on behalf of the beneficiary. And those are, one, a parent, two, guardian of the beneficiary, or, three, a person with power of attorney. If you're not one of those, then you do not have the privilege of having signature authority on a beneficiary's account. Also, funds in the account may be used for what's called qualified disability related expenses. We're going to talk about what those are here in a little bit. Also, assets in and distributions for qualified disability related expenses will be disregarded or given special treatment when determining eligibility for most federal means tested benefits, including Social Security and Medicaid. And we'll talk about why that is most as opposed to all. There's just one small but significant exception that we'll talk about in a bit. Also, multiple people can contribute into an individual's ABLE account, including friends, family, and certainly including the beneficiary themselves perhaps as a result perhaps of employment. There is an annual contribution limit, and it's actually set right now at 15,000. It previously was 14,000, but for 2018, it has been set at 15,000. And this is all contributors combined. Okay. So those are some basics behind ABLE, again, that are consistent, but we want to dig into just a couple of those before we get into the 2018 changes. So we know little bit about those consistencies. Who exactly is eligible to open up an ABLE account? Does that mean every person with a disability? Well, unfortunately, no. There are criteria related to being able to open up an ABLE account, and they're broken down into two prongs. The first is related to the person's age in which they first experienced their disability. And the law states that they must have first had an onset of disability prior to their 26th birthday. That doesn't mean that you can't be older than 26 and establish an ABLE account. It just means that you would have had to first experience your disability before your 26th birthday. So provided that that particular criteria is met, you move on to the second criteria that needs to be met. And this relates to the severity of that particular disability. You can satisfy this prong by having been determined to meet the disability requirements for supplemental security income or SSI or SSDI, which is Social Security disability insurance benefits. So if you are a current beneficiary of SSI or SSDI and that disability occurred before your 26th birthday, you are good to go. You can go open up an ABLE account in a program of your choosing. Now let's say that you meet the age requirement, but for whatever reason, you are not currently a beneficiary of SSI or SSDI. You may still be eligible to open up an ABLE account; however, you would have to submit what's called a disability certification, and that certification assures that the individual holds documentation of a physician's diagnosis and signature and confirms that the individuals meets the functional disability criteria in the ABLE act related to the severity of the disability described within the Social Security act, which is basically the SSI children's definition in order to be eligible for that. So there's multiple ways that you can be eligible to open up an ABLE account. And that's a snapshot of what that looks like. Okay. So now we know who is eligible. What exactly can these funds contributed into an ABLE account be used for? Well, they can be used for what's called qualified disability expenses. Now that's a very broad term. What that basically means, what qualified disability expenses are, are expenses that relate to the designated beneficiary's blindness or disability and are for the benefit of that designated beneficiary and helps them maintain or increase their health, independence, or quality of life. So again, that's extremely broad, and we wanted to make sure it was broad because we appreciate the wide variety of different needs of people with disabilities. Additionally, the term "qualified disability expenses," again, should be construed broadly to permit the inclusion of even basic living expenses and should not be limited to, number one, expenses for items for which there is a medical necessity. So this isn't like perhaps Medicaid where you need for circum-circumstances are supposed to be received, you need to go to a doctor and they need to write you, prescribe a certain supported service. This isn't like that. There' no medical necessity towards these expenses. In additional, they are not limited to expenses which provide no benefit to others in addition to the benefit of the eligible individual. So while the benefit should primarily be to the beneficiary, the person with the disability, they can have peripheral benefits to others. So as an example, you could buy a car, a person, an ABLE account owner could buy a car or accessible van with their ABLE funds, and just because somebody else might ride in that van from time to time and have a benefit, that does not mean that it would disqualify that particular expense. To get a little more specific, Congress gave us different categories, or buckets as I call them, in terms of what these qualified disability expenses might fall under. They include, education, housing, transportation, employment and training supports, assistive technology, personal supports and services, health, prevention and wellness, financial management and administrative services, legal fees, and even includes funeral and burial expenses, and again even include, goes so far to include basic living expenses. While this is extremely broad in terms of what these funds can be used for, it is important to note that distributions from a person's ABLE account for nonqualified expenditures not only will be subject to tax consequences but perhaps more importantly, and I would say certainly more importantly, they could affect the beneficiary's eligibility for federally funded means-tested benefits, such as Medicaid or perhaps SSI. Okay. So just a couple more slides until we get into the real meat of this webinar. We want to discuss and we want to make sure everybody understands how these dollars in a ABLE account may or may not affect federal means-tested benefits because this is really what makes ABLE so special is being able to revive people with disabilities and, many circumstances for the first time, the ability to save without having to be vulnerable their eligibility for things like Medicaid and SSI that provide them supports and services to help them live independently. So, ABLE assets will be disregarded or receive favorable treatment when determining eligibility for most federal means-tested benefits. And the only reason that I put most in there as opposed to all is because there is one slight exception, and that relates to ABLE account owners who are also beneficiaries of supplemental security income or SSI. And what the law states is that only the first $100,000 in the ABLE account is actually disregarded. So in terms of SSI, that cash payment that people receive as a result of being a beneficiary of SSI, once the account exceeds $100,000, that cash benefit will be suspended but not terminated, until such time as the balance of that account falls back below that $100,000 threshold. So that's important to note. Now given the fact that you can only contribute up to $15,000 in most circumstances into an ABLE account a year, it's going to take some time for these folks to get up to $100,000. But it is something that you should be aware of. I did want to talk briefly about Medicaid eligibility, and that's only because many people who are beneficiaries of SSI also take advantage of the benefits provided through Medicaid as a result of being eligible through SSI. So even if that SSI cash benefit is suspended, that has no bearing on the individual's eligibility for Medicaid. So Medicaid will stay intact despite a situation in which the ABLE account exceeds that $100,000. So that's very important to understand. Lastly, with respect to Medicaid, folks should know that there is what's called a Medicaid payback provision associated with ABLE accounts. And what that means is that any assets remaining in the ABLE account when a beneficiary passes away, subject to outstanding qualified disability expenses, can be used to reimburse the state for Medicaid payments made on behalf of that beneficiary starting at the point in which the ABLE account was established. It's also important to note, however, that some states have decided to pass legislation that would prohibit the filing of that claim. So you'd want to look state to state to see whether or not that Medicaid payback provision is going to be applicable. But it is important to note often because people who are receiving supports and services through Medicaid over any significant period of time, those add up in cost and at the point of which the beneficiary may pass away might gobble up the rest of the funds in that account. So we often say that this is a tool for being able to save without jeopardizing your benefits; however, it's not the best tool if we're talking about a wealth transfer type of tool. You might want to look into other things such as perhaps a special needs trust for something like that. I also mentioned that these are tax-advantaged savings accounts. So just very briefly, let's talk about what that means. It's important to note that contributions to an ABLE account are made with post-tax dollars. Also, ABLE account earnings within the account, which we talk about ABLE as a savings account, but in many circumstances, it's really an investment account. And the dollars that are invested in an ABLE account earn or grow tax-free and are tax exempt, even when they are disbursed for qualified disability related expenses. So that's a huge benefit. While there are no deductions or credits in terms of federal income tax, some states have passed laws that allow for deductions for contributions to ABLE accounts for purposes of state income tax deductions. And those are some of the states listed in that slide that offer this incentive to contribute into an ABLE account by allowing for deductions on the state level. All right. Lastly, we mentioned this earlier, but I do want to reiterate it. There are 30 states plus the District of Columbia that have launched programs. I know that we have another one coming on board, I think just in a couple weeks. I think it's West Virginia. So we are extremely excited to see so many states that have found this benefit to be of such great value that they've in relatively short period of time launched these programs and are maintaining these programs. I believe to date, we have around 15,000 accounts open across the United States. And if you add up every dollar in every one of those accounts, you get to about $50 million worth of assets under management that people are now saving that, in many circumstance, they were prohibited from saving in the past for fear of losing vital supports and services. So this is really great, and I'm extremely excited to have several representatives from a number of those programs on the call with us today. Okay. So now that we have kind of an idea of the history, we understand some of the common components of ABLE, who is eligible, what these funds can be used for, what the tax advantages are, let's talk about what we all are very interested in, and that are what are some expected changes that we will be seeing in 2018. So let's start with the first one: increased contribution limit. So the annual contribution limit is periodically adjusted for inflation. As a result, for the year 2018, so that tax year, the annual contribution is now set at 15,000. Previously in 2017, it was at 14,000. We adjusted it, the government adjusted it for inflation. Now, it's 15,000. Now again, it's important to note as we said previously, the $15,000 annual contribution limit accounts for all contributors combined in any given tax year. So everybody that chooses to contribute in there, when you add all those up in any given tax your, they're not allowed to exceed $15,000. Now you will notice there's an asterisk there. We're going to talk about that later because in addition to this increase, Congress also passed a provision that would allow the beneficiary to contribute funds as a result of employment above that $15,000 mark. But we'll talk about that here in a little bit because there are criteria that have to be met in order for that cap to be raised. But for purposes of this particular slide and for purposes of the generic annual contribution limit, it is now set at $15,000. Okay. So the 529 college savings account rollover provision. So this is previously known as the ABLE Financial Planning Act. And this provision was passed as part of the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act of 2017. So what exactly does this do? So this allows funds and a 529 college savings account to be rolled over into a 529 A or ABLE account. There's a couple things that need to be met, however, and there's a couple stipulations. So it's important to note that the ABLE account beneficiary or the beneficiary to receive the funds from the college savings account must be either, number one, the beneficiary of the 529 college savings account or a family member of the beneficiary of the college savings account. And in our panel discussion, we're going to hear some examples of what this would look like and some reasons why this is important for families of children with disabilities. We have some specific examples that we'll give in case people are wondering why is this so important or what circumstances might people find themselves in, in which they would benefit from being able to transfer funds from a 529 college savings account into an ABLE account. Additionally, the funds rolled over from a 529 college savings account to an ABLE account are still subject to the annual contribution limit and thus capped at $15,000 for any given tax year, provided that there's been no other contributions into that account during that year. So let's say that you have $30,000 in a 529 college savings account, and you find that those dollars would be better suited for the same beneficiary in their ABLE account. How might you be able to do this? Well, because there's that $15,000 limit, you would have to spread that over a course of at least two years, provided there were no other contributions in there. So there's nothing in the law that prohibits a number of transfers. It just prohibits the amount in which you can contribute in any given year. We do want to point out that this provision will expire in January 1 of 2026. We wanted to include this in case any folks hear that these provisions aren't here to stay or that people should be worrisome because these things expire. Technically, that is true, but we have no reason to believe that when that time comes that they will, in fact, expire. And, in fact, we believe that they will be extended. These were just things that were included in the tax bill really for technical purposes related to the cost of the bill and the technique in which the bill was passed. So while that is technically true, I wouldn't take it into consideration when determining whether or not you want to exercise the benefit of rolling over an account or any of the other provisions that we'll talk about today that have that expiration date. Okay. So let's talk about the second change, and this is a newfound eligibility for ABLE beneficiaries to take advantage of what's called the saver's credit. So the formal name of the saver's credit is the retirement savings contributions credit. And the purpose is that this tax credit acts as an incentive for low and moderate income taxpayers to make contributions into their retirement accounts. So an example, that could be an IRA, a 401k, a 403b, and it incentivizes contributions into these accounts by allowing those individuals who are contributing a tax credit, which can be used to deduct an individual's tax liability or basically what they owe in taxes. Now this new tax law extends this credit to those ABLE account owners who contribute to their own ABLE account and who meet other criteria related to being eligible for the saver's credit. So I mentioned that not only just being an ABLE account owner in and of itself qualify your or even contributing into your own ABLE account doesn't in and of itself qualify, you also have to meet those other criteria that are already established in the saver's credit guidelines. So what are those? Well, in order to claim the credit, you must, number one, be 18 years of age or older. You cannot be a full-time student, and you cannot be claimed as a dependent on another person's tax return. So you have to meet those three criteria, plus, of course, you have to be an ABLE account owner who is contributing into their own ABLE account. Additionally, in order to take advantage of this, if you are a single person filing as a single individual, this credit cuts off for people that make above $31,000. I believe it's $31,500 for 2018, or if you're filing as a couple, that would be $62,000. It's also important to note that this is a nonrefundable credit, which means that you must owe taxes to be able to use the credit and that the maximum value could reduce those taxes you owe to zero. So you won't be getting money back as a result of this credit. You would only be able to reduce your tax liability down to zero. So how much can an individual actually get from this credit? So there is a maximum credit you can receive of $2000. If you're filing single and have a joint filing, it can be up to $4000. How is it calculated? Well, the percentage of your contribution you are allowed to take as a credit is reduced as your adjusted gross income increases. So basically, the more money you make, the less of the credit you can take. Again, technically, this provision will expire in January of 2026; however, again, we don't think that anybody should really take that in consideration when utilizing this, especially because this is really something really that is realized on a year-to-year basis. Additionally, I wanted to put up that chart. I hope folks can read it. I hope it's not too small. But it basically stipulates how that credit or the credit that you earn is basically determined. So let's do a very quick example. So let's say that you're an ABLE account owner and you have a job and you make $20,000 a year, and throughout the entire year, you're able to put $2000 into your ABLE account. Now when it comes time to pay taxes, you're interested in the saver's credit because now you're eligible for it. Well, we'll notice that if you make $20,000, that means that you can take a credit of 20% of that $2000. >> Fifty. >> Oh, is it 50? >> Yeah, if you've made only 20. >> Yep, you're absolutely right. So 50%. So that means that you can get a credit of $1000, which is great because that can reduce your tax liability, and obviously you can use those extra funds that you're no longer paying to increase your savings or contribute back into your ABLE account. So, and we're going to talk a little bit more about each of these, including the tax credit, in a little bit in our panelist discussion as well. So the last change that we can expect in 2018, at least up to this point, not to say that we couldn't pass other laws between now and the end of 2018, you know the possibilities of that we'll leave for another discussion. But the last one that we know absolutely will be implemented is a provision that allows for additional contributions above the $15,000 annual contribution limit. So I alluded to this or we talked about this briefly in a few slides ago. But what exactly is it? So this particular provision is previously known as the ABLE to Work Act. And this provision was also like the 529 roll over and the saver's credit, and it was passed as a part of the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act of 2017. And this provision basically allows ABLE account beneficiaries who work and earn income to contribute above that $15,000 annual contribution limit, which is great. It allows them to save more, provides them an opportunity to put more funds into their ABLE account. Well, a question you may have is, by how much? As a result of a person working and earning income, how much extra can they contribute into their ABLE account above that $15,000? Well, the answer to that is it would be the lesser of their gross income for that taxable year or the amount equal to the federal poverty line as defined in accordance with the federal poverty line of the contiguous 48 states for a one-person household. So basically what all that jargon means is the FPL is set right now at $12,060, from what we understand. So it would be the amount in which a person can contribute above the $15,000 would be the amount of money they make or the 12,060, whichever is less. That's how much a person would be allowed to contribute over that $15,000. So that would serve as a maximum under this new provision. If you meet the certain criteria that are related to being able to take advantage of this, you could then have a maximum contribution limit of $27,000, over $27,000. So that's a significant benefit. Now there are some provisions related to being allowed to contribute above that contribution limit. So some of those include the fact that the contributions above the 15,000 annual contribution limit would be limited to contributions made specifically by the account beneficiary into their ABLE account. So this is kind of what we understand. This is how we are currently interpreting the law. So from what we understand now is that let's say that an individual is an ABLE account owner and they have a job, and let's say that they make $13,000. Let's say that their parents, friends and family have contributed to the maximum. So they've contributed that $15,000 already. So as a result of this individual having employment, they would then be able to contribute up to $12,060 into their ABLE account, but just them. As a result of having employment or having a job, it doesn't mean that other people, friends, family, other people who might want to contribute would be allowed to exceed that $15,000 cap. So that's something how we believe the law should work; however there are pieces of this particular provision that need some clarification, and we'll talk about that in a little bit. Additionally, additional contributions would only be allowed if the beneficiary is not participating whatsoever in his or her employer-based retirement fund. So another provision. So let's say then that same person circumstance, same everything, but that person, the account owner, the beneficiary who has employment, who's making, you know, that $20,000 or what have you, is also contributing into their employer-based retirement fund. At that point, that person would be disqualified from contributing above the $15,000 cap. So you cannot be participating in your employer-based retirement plan and still take advantage of this provision. In addition to that, while there are also some uncertainties behind this, we believe that not only includes making contributions into your employer-based retirement plan, but if your employer is contributing into that for you, we believe that would constitute participation and thus disqualify that particular person from contributing above the $15,000 contribution limit. And this is all a discussion we'll have in further detail with our panelists. But that's how, at least from my perspective, we're reading it right now. Another very, very important aspect to recognize, and this has inconsistent ever since ABLE accounts were first established and is not different now that we have this new provision, is the fact that earnings by the beneficiary, the person with the disability, the account owner, as a result of employment, even if they are contributed into an ABLE account, they will still be counted in terms of what's called substantial gainful activity or earned income, and thus taken into consideration when determining eligibility for various public benefits, including SSI, SSDI and Medicaid. They're going to be taken into consideration in terms of earned income but not in terms of assets. So there's a big differentiation of folks need to understand in terms of kind of means test for public benefits. They're divided typically into earned income and assets. ABLE addresses assets or savings. It does not do anything, even if the beneficiary is contributing directly from their employer as a result of wages into their able account. It would still be counted in terms of earned income. So that's important, very, very important to understand. That's been the case previously. And this particular provision does not change that whatsoever. Like I mentioned previously and probably like you kind of noticed, there's a few different assumptions that we're making with this particular provision. So certainly, questions still remain about aspects related to this provision and may require a guidance from the Department of Treasury. And that's the particular department that has been found responsible for helping states and stakeholders understand how to implement this law. As an example of this, we really don't have a definition of what it means to work or what employment means. And as many of you on the phone I'm sure understand, in terms of the disability community, there are wide variations "employment." There's segregated employment. There's sub minimum-wage employment. Some people only work a couple hours a week or a few hours a month. Would this qualify them for this particular provision and provide them the opportunity to contribute above the cap? We're just not sure. So that's just an example of some of the uncertainties related to this provision that may result in a period of time in which our programs might choose not to implement this particular provision as a result of needing further guidance from the Department of Treasury. And we'll talk a little bit more about that from the state program perspective here in a little bit when we get into our panel discussion. Again, just as a technicality, technically, this provision also expires January 2026; however, again, we this should not act to deter anybody from being interested in the provision or taking advantage of the provision. We have every reason to believe that this will be extended when needed. Okay. So I know that we went over a lot, and there's a lot more to discuss and looking forward to taking a deeper dive into these various provisions with our guest panelists. But if you ever want to see a summary of these changes, a brief summary, we have posted that summary on the ABLE National Resource Center website at the following link that you see in front of you. If you can, write down that link very quickly. You can just always go to the main page, scroll down a bit into the news section, and you'll see that article. Again, that provides you just with a very brief summary of kind of what we've discussed during this webinar. Also, it's worth mentioning these slides will be up on the website also. So you'll be able to see those specifically within the next week. Before we get into our panel discussion, just very briefly about the ABLE National Resource Center. We had such an incredible turnout today. I suspect many of you are familiar with the ABLE National Resource Center. But if not, ABLE National Resource Center is a collaborative who supporters share the goal of accelerating the design and availability of ABLE accounts for the benefit of individuals with disabilities and their families. We work to bring together the investment, support and resources of the country's largest and most influential national disability organizations. I strongly encourage folks to visit the website. There's an incredible amount of information there, including all our archived webinars, short videos describing the different components related to ABLE accounts. We have a map, and it will tell you which states have launched ABLE programs. And we also have a comparison tool actually that will help people better understand the differences between one ABLE program and another ABLE program in an effort to help people choose a program that best meets their particular needs. Additionally, there's a portion of the website that allows you to submit questions if you find yourself in a circumstance where whatever you're looking for isn't on the website or hasn't been provided through a video or webinar. You're welcome to submit questions there, and we will get back to you in a very timely manner. So again, I encourage folks to check out the website, sign up for the listserv so you get updates about these webinars, of which we'll be doing a webinar every month this year, and we're excited about that and then other various things related to ABLE accounts and ABLE programs. All right. With that, that kind of concludes the presentation portion of the webinar and really gets down to the part that I think is most interesting and certainly most exciting, especially when we have such a great list of panelists as we do today, which is we're going to just start a brief Q&A with our panelists to talk about these various changes. So let's see here. I'll start with the first question. And anybody can jump in. Feel free. Whoever feels most comfortable in terms of the panelists answering these questions, please do. So as we discussed, there is a new annual contribution limit for ABLE accounts that's not set at $15,000. Let's point this one to Dave, who's the director of the Oregon program. Dave, can you tell us a little bit more about this in terms of, number one, is this per contributor or all contributors combined? >> Chris, thank you. No. That's a good clarifying point here. We're all excited that the annual contribution level is increasing. Of course, we'd like to see it even go up more or be eliminated all together so that people could put as much in as they want and can. But right now, it's set at $15,000 that the change for 2018. And Chris, to your point, that amount is for all contributors. So total amount of contributions that are put into an ABLE account totaling $15,000. So it's not a situation where the beneficiary themselves can put in 15,000 and then their parents can put in another 15. Unfortunately, that's not the case. It's for all contributors to the account. >> Okay. I got you. I appreciate you sticking a point in that because I know it's very important. In terms of those annual contribution limits, Dave, that's going to be consistent with no matter what program that you're in. So you're not talking specifically necessarily specifically about the Oregon program that you manage, but that would be the same no matter what program out there, right? >> Yeah, that's absolutely right. That is for every ABLE program across the country. And that was put in place on January 1. So this is not an area that you have to wait for. The new contribution limit is $15,000 for any ABLE account throughout the country. >> Excellent. Great, great. Thank you. This next clarification, let me give this one to J.J, who is the director of the Illinois ABLE program. And oftentimes, I get the question that let's say that I do contribute that $15,000 in 2018, but I also use 2000 of it for qualified disability related expenses. Now does that give me the ability to then -- Does that decrease that to 13,000, which means I can contribute another $2000 in 2018, or how does that work? >> No, Chris. And thanks for having me on the panel. And I join a lot of fellow members from the National ABLE Alliance. Your total aggregate contribution in one year can be $15,000 but no more, even if you use or spend down some of that money. >> Got you. Okay. So that's very good to know. I know that we often get a lot of questions about that. So altogether, $15,000 in 2018, no matter how much of those funds that you contribute that you spend. So that's good to know. That's good to understand. Thank you, JJ. Got you. >> Thank you. >> So in terms of -- Let's talk a little bit about the rollover because I know that I get a lot of questions. Certainly, over the last couple years at the ABLE National Resource Center and I'm sure among other organizations and certainly the programs, we frequently have been asked about the rollover provision. Why would a parent want to roll over a 529 college savings account into an ABLE account, and how would a family have gone about trying to do that previously? And let me direct that question to Stuart Spielman who is with Autism Speaks. I know that you guys had pushed for this, and I know that you guys have specific instances and examples of how parents and families can benefit from this provision. >> Yeah, Chris, and thanks for asking the question. So at Autism Speaks, the question about rollover is probably the most common question I received. People would call and they would ask me a question that would go something like this. My child just got a diagnosis of autism. When my child was born, I started a college savings account for my child. Now I just don't know what the future holds, and I'm concerned that my child may not go to college. I don't know. I've heard that there are a lot of things that can be done with an ABLE account including spending money on education. So I'd like to put money from the college savings account, I'd like to take that money in a college savings account and put in an ABLE account. Can I do that directly without any fuss or bother? And I would answer these questions saying, unfortunately, no, that there is no provision for a direct rollover, that what you will have to do is cash out your college savings account. Now there should not be a penalty associated with cashing out because of your child circumstances, but you will have to pay a tax on any investment gain in the college savings account. This rollover provision should eliminate the fuss and the bother of having to go through all the administrative steps and having to pay a tax on investment gain. This provision should allow a family that experiences the situation I've described to take the money from a college savings account, take the money up to the $15,000 yearly maximum and put it into the ABLE account. >> Got you. Thank you, sir. Yeah. I think you give some good examples there. Not ever disability that will make a person qualify to open an ABLE account is recognized at birth. You're absolutely right. I think autism is a great example of that. Additionally, you know, there are often unfortunate circumstances that may happen in a person's life. You know, an individual might get in a car accident at age 15 and render them, you know, a paraplegic, which could qualify them for an ABLE account and perhaps their parents for, you know, 15 years of what have you have them saving significant amounts of money in a 529 college savings account, only to find that perhaps those dollars would be better exercised in an ABLE account and be able to address that individual's disability related needs. Like you said, Stuart, previously, while there was ways to do it, it was much more difficult, and there were tax considerations to be made. But it sounds like with this new provision, it's going to be much more seamless and certainly allow for more of those funds and the account specifically the growth to be appreciated in the ABLE account. So that's great. Staying kind of on the same topic, and maybe this one for Mary with Virginia, Virginia Now program. Couple questions. The first would be you guys have an incredible 529 college savings program. I think it's the largest in the country. Would I have to have my account with the 529 college savings account in order to transfer into a Virginia ABLE account? Basically what I'm asking is do they have to be governed by the same state, or can it come from anywhere? And then I'll follow that up with, is this particular option available today? >> So on the first question, no. You should be able to roll it from any program. I don't know that anyone has their forms and procedures ready just yet. I think everyone is working to do that. You know, we had what, 10 or 12 days between the date this legislation was signed and the date it became effective. So that's been a bit of a challenge for all of us to get up to speed with. But it does allow for not just what's called a direct rollover from one program to the other, but you make take a distribution as long as it's put into the account within 60 days. Then, you know, you should follow up by similar rules to what you have for college savings accounts. So you just need to communicate. My best suggestion right now when programs are still trying to update their forms, their systems and their procedures is just to call customer service to, you know, kind of do it the old fashion manual way and ask how can I do this, you know, with a letter and a transmittal. So it's maybe not pretty right now to do the 529 college savings rollover to an ABLE account, but at least in our program, it's possible. And we're telling folks when they ask, you know, we'll kind of walk them through it in a manual process until we have our systems updated. >> Got you. Got you. Yeah. I can understand how difficult these might be under such short kind of notices having this bill just pass. And I know having worked so closely with all the program administrators and managers, I know that you guys are doing all that you can to get these options up and running in a timely manner that helps folks with disabilities and helps ABLE account owners. So that's great. Would the other folks on the phone, maybe JJ and Dave, is that consistent in terms of the rollover option where your programs stand? It's kind of on just, you know, check with each state kind of basis or? >> Yes. This is JJ. Yes. It's really a check with each state situation. And, you know, some states are adopting all of the federal language. So it's more of a seamless, just a mechanics change for their programs. Others have to actually change their state legislation to allow ABLE accounts to become qualified distributions from a 529 plan. So it varies state by state. And we can't stress enough, I think as Mary said, states are trying to figure out how they're going to treat it and when changes, legislative changes, if they're necessary, will be possible in their state. So we advise to consult your state ABLE administrator if you particularly go to the websites to get updates and also talk with a qualified tax advisor in your state about your specific needs. >> Right. You know, if I can interject one more thing. Sorry on that that I did not go into. I think the reason for some of that, JJ, is that you may have taken and the interplay between state income tax deductions or credits in the college savings realm and in the ABLE realm. Not as many states have deductions right now for ABLE programs. In Virginia, we have them for both college savings and ABLE, but they're different. So I think some states are really struggling with, well, what does that mean. Do we have to have a recapture and everything that goes into that if you move from college savings to ABLE? For right now, you know, our position is, no, you just don't get to double dip. If you've taken a deduction on the college savings side, that kind of translates over, at least within Virginia, and, you know, you don't get an additional deduction for the ABLE program. But that's going to be the trickiest thing I think for the states. The actual transfer and, you know, having it be qualified for federal purposes, it clearly is, you're not going to have to pay tax on the income or penalties, depending on, you know, some of those things. But it's the potential recapture or how to deal with those deductions that I think everybody's struggling with. >> Chris, this is Dave in Oregon. I think what you're hearing here in all the participants, what you're hearing here is that these are really complicated things for us to figure out, but please do know that we're dedicated to doing this. We have our legal teams working on it. We have our internal partners and and other teams working on this. And not only will we come up with a good solution for the end-user, but I know that every state is going to find the best way to make this as user-friendly so that when you are ready to make this happen, you'll have an easy step-by-step process to be able to follow it. And just know that we're working on that. It's not in play right now, but we are working to make that happen. >> Great. Great. Thank you, David. I appreciate that. Let's talk a little bit about the saver's credit, the n new option for being eligible for that. Michael, NDI has done work to help people with disabilities take advantage of various tax deductions and credits. What is the significance of being knowledgeable about these in terms of helping people's financial well-being, and how does the saver's credit play into that? >> Well, a number of ways is saver's credit, like the earned income tax credit, are only for people who have earned income. And it's for people at a low and moderate income level. And so, really, this represents new opportunity not to leave money on the table that belongs to you. And so, with the saver's credit, you have an opportunity, if you qualify, based on your adjusted gross income level and your tax filing status for money you're going to contribute to your ABLE account, earned income. You have an opportunity to have the government put some additional money into your ABLE account. And unlike IRAs, that a worker who might be with a disability might be eligible for, that money isn't going to be locked up till your retirement age. You're going to be able to use that money earlier because that's the nature of an ABLE account, either for transaction purposes, short-term needs, or you could set it aside for a number of years, but not till you're 59 and a half or 70 in terms of how some IRAs work. So there's really some opportunities here in terms of when you can use it and that flexibility and the government helping put money in to match your contributions. So that's a big deal. It won't help everyone, but there certainly will be people who will qualify. And for people with the saver's credit, unlike an IRA, an IRA would count as a resource that would count against you if you had more than $2000. But here, the saver's credit is going to be exempt from that and gives you another reason to put money into your ABLE account, rather than an IRA. I don't know, Marty, if you might have some additional thoughts. >> Not at this point. But that's a really, really important thing for people to think about in terms of maximizing their savings. >> Great, great. Thank you, Michael. That is very interesting. I know that some people might find tax things daunting, but I think in many circumstances, they'll find if they understand them, you can really increase your economic position in terms of getting money back and things like that. So that's great. I want to talk a little bit -- Well, before we move on from that, this is a question that I haven't gotten, and I don't know that anybody on the phone might have this actually, but I'm going to throw it out there anyways. Do these contributions, in order that would help an ABLE account owner be able to take advantage of that saver's credit, do they fall into the same timeline as the tax year or, as with an IRA, do contributions count until the filing deadline? And I don't know that anybody knows this, and this might be something that needs clarification by treasury. Anybody want to take a stab at that? Nobody from [inaudible] on the phone. >> Chris, I believe this is going to be a bit state specific. I might want to caution with that. I know that -- Well, I think it's going to be a bit state specific as to whether they allow it, the calendar year or more of the tax year, which means they can make those contributions. And that would be for the state tax deduction that you're talking about or specifically the credit? >> The credit. >> Okay. That one, I better be careful not to get into this one. >> Yeah. >> Right. Yeah. That's what I figured. It might be an example of how we'll need some instruction from treasury or some guidance or things like that. People wouldn't be able to take advantage of this until they file in 2019. So there still is time, obviously plenty of time. And we always encourage ABLE account owners to contribute, you know, parts of their earnings or their paychecks or what have you into their ABLE accounts. They've have been able to do that, you know, before these provisions, and there are certain incentives to doing it even more now that these particular laws have passed, so. >> And I would echo -- Sorry, Chris. This is JJ. I would echo what Dave said about those contributions. There is a need for some clarification. But as he mentioned, some states, what their 529 program allows up until tax filing but not all states. I know Illinois requires calendar year contributions for its 529 program. And we'll do the same, at least for now, with ABLE. >> Got you. >> That it's a calendar year contribution not up until the time you file. >> Right, right. And again, this might be too soon to be asking these questions, but we did want to, you know, do this webinar to give folks an idea of what the changes. And we'll probably do a follow-up sometime midyear to do a catch up or things like that. But in terms of people who are interested in the saver's credit, do you see, or I should say, now, do able programs provide a breakdown of the individuals that are contributing into the ABLE accounts? So I guess I'm asking that for the purposes of while the beneficiary should keep track, obviously, of how much money they're contributing into the account so that, as an example, if they want to take advantage of the saver's credit, they would know how much money they can put forward to that, but is that information that you think you would give to the beneficiary or that you would give to the IRS or that the beneficiary might just have to keep good records or all of the above? >> I'll take a stab at this, and any others, please chime in with your thoughts. But programs are still figuring this out. It seems to be a running theme through our webinar today. I will say that in terms -- And I'm referring specifically to the ABLE to Work, which is maybe not what you're referring to. But in terms of contributions to that $15,000 limit, the programs, at least in the alliance, will keep track of contributions up to those limits and then will eventually be able to track that the account doesn't exceed the federal poverty limit numbers. But we don't have plans to track what the sources of the contributions are. And that would be the responsibility of the account owner. And I think it's been mentioned there's clarification needed about what the federal poverty limit use would be for Hawaii and Alaska. But in the meantime, even there, we're looking at that current FPL of $12,060. Does that answer the question that you're asking, Chris, about contributions and who tracks the source of the contribution? >> Yeah. I think that's helpful. And certainly, you know, from the start of these accounts, we've always recommended that folks keep good record-keeping, not only the money that is being contributed into the accounts, but certainly the money that's coming out of the accounts and the expenses and things like that. I think you bring up a good point. There is a certain level of responsibility that comes along with being an ABLE account owner. So I think those are important things to understand and things that we hope in the future that the ABLE National Resource Center will be spending more time on helping ABLE account owners better understand how to responsibly manage these accounts. And I'm sure those are going to be perspectives and different things that we'll be talking about in those materials and webinars. Since you did bring it up, I do want to talk a little bit about the ABLE to Work provision. As you guys know, as a result of the ABLE to Work ACT, becoming law account owners who are working are allowed to contribute above that annual cap, which allows certain types of people that meet certain criteria the opportunity to contribute what now could be, you know, over $27,000 into an ABLE account. And that's an extremely exciting thing that provides opportunities for people to grow their funds in the account over a shorter period of time. As in 2017, obviously, the maximum was $14,000 and no exceptions to that. So now, this does appear to be a way for certain individuals to contribute even more and perhaps even incentivize ABLE account owners to pursue employment so that they can contribute above that $15,000 annual contribution limit. One of the questions that I want to ask, and this is for anybody, is that we understand that if the person works, however that's defined, can contribute now into their ABLE account. Can a nonworking account owner or account owner who would be disqualified from contributing above the cap as a result of participating in the retirement plan still contribute into their own ABLE account? >> Yes. There's an easy one. I mean, right. You still can have the account you have. You're just subject to the overall $15,000 cap for contributions that can come in from the individual who's the account owner and person with disability or others who may contribute, other loved one or friends or family that can contribute up to that $15,000 cap. >> Got you. So even if, let's say, I know that a big issue that often faces families and in particular people that are SSI beneficiaries is what's called having to spend down. So they'll get an SSI check, and for whatever reason during that particular month, they don't use all of that money. And, in fact, if they build that money up, it could disqualify them in terms of putting them over their asset limits. So despite that money not coming from employment, they could still contribute funds into the account. Or let's say that that individual received a small inheritance or something like that, they could contribute those funds. So we don't want people -- Is what you're saying we don't want people to presume that the only way they would be allowed to contribute into their ABLE account is if they have employment, right? >> Absolutely. Right. >> Great, great. Well, we do want to make sure, and I want to reiterate this. So I think I touched on it during the slide. Despite the fact -- Is it true that despite the fact that a person has employment or works and they're not participating in their retirement plan so that cap is lifted, can others contribute into that ABLE account above that $15,000, or is it specific to the beneficiary, and how does that work? >> This is Marty. As it's written, it's only the beneficiary as the language is written. But this is an area where we think there needs to be -- It's not entirely clear that that was what was intended. And we probably some clarification from the IRS, if possible. >> Got you. >> But as the language is currently written and the way most of us are reading it, it looks as though only the beneficiary who is working and owns the account is the one who can put money into it above the $15,000 limit. >> Got you. >> Yeah. Chris, this is David in Oregon. And we agree with what Marty is saying here. And that's how I think states are going to move forward with it. One thing I would like to add is physically, the authorized legal representative could put money in only on behalf of the beneficiaries from their wages. But yes, we are looking at it the same way as Marty just explained it right there. And states are going to have to find out the exact process in which to help make sure that individuals feel comfortable going over that $15,000 limit with their own wages. >> Got you. Thank you. Yeah, I think that -- >> Sorry. That's probably the biggest, you know, unknown. This is Mary. I'd say this is probably one of the biggest unknowns with this. You know, and conversations with the patron of this bill, that was not their intent anyway from what they've said. They're trying to keep it simple. And most programs right now don't track where the money is coming from and money comes into a system. Whether it's through ACH or a lock box, you can't necessarily tell where it's coming from. And obviously, the source of it, whether it's from earned income, money becomes money at some point. So I think that's the biggest uncertainty that we have in trying to implement this particular provision. >> Got you. Thank you. Yeah. I appreciate the comment, Dave, about differentiating, including the person with signature authority contributing funds on behalf of the beneficiary as a result of their employment or their wages earned and things like that. Let's see. So, and this might be, again, a premature question. I'll ask this one first. I don't want people to get wrapped up into some of the complexities of these new provisions, particularly the ABLE to Work piece. Really, the ABLE to Work provision allows a person to contribute above that cap. Now does that provision have anything to do with people or accounts that for whatever reason are not even coming close to contributing that amount of money or maxing out the account? >> No. >> Got you. >> No, Chris. It really wouldn't because, you know, the $15,000 annual can come from anybody. And if we're staying under that or the individual themselves are staying under that, it's just not something they really need to worry about too much. It's for those individuals that can have money coming in up to that $15,000 from others and still have some of their own wages going in above that. And Chris, just to reiterate what you were saying here, I get always nervous that we start confusing people and scaring people because of how difficult and complicated this is. I do want to let people know on the phone call that we're going to work really hard. The states are working really hard to work through all of this very difficult information coming in, get the clarity and then present it to you as simple as possible. It's not going to say that it's going to be simply and easy in every case. But we're going to do our best to make it as clear as possible. So if you're a little confused today after this call, please understand, we are too. So we're going to try to get those answers for you and then present it to you a way where we eliminate that confusion. >> So I want to -- This is Stuart. And I want to build on what David just had said. We are now talking about, panelists talking about some complex questions that result from a law that was enacted on December 22nd. So while those questions demand our attention, the basic scenario that probably most individuals will experience is going to be a lot more straightforward. As someone who works for an advocacy organization, I think it always behooves us to think about the basic situation and to also look at sides. I think JJ, David, Mary's state websites were all very good, all very friendly. And as you can tell from this presentation, there are real people behind the websites who are eager to answer questions. But I hope people are not put off by, you know, the $200 Jeopardy question, if you will. Most of the ABLE scenarios I think are fairly straightforward. >> Yeah. This is Chris. I would reiterate that. Again, you know, some of the things, number one, this bill just passed no more than a month ago. So there are things to iron out. Two, I know and, Stuart, I know that you know, and Marty knows, that these ABLE programs are working around the clock to get these new provisions up and that everybody is excited about them and that they're going to do that in a way that is as seamless as possible and leaves the ABLE account owners in a limited, not know vulnerable positions and things like that. Also, with respect to these particular provisions, again, like Dave said, you know, the Able to Work Act is only significant if you're maxing out the account. And from what I understand, a very small percentage of ABLE account owners are even in that realm. So if you're not even in that realm, then you really don't need to take much of this into consideration. >> The average is below $4000. >> Right. The average account is I think, and correct me if I'm wrong, anybody on the phone, is under $4000. So that provision, you know, while it will be incredibly significant to some, just is not that significant right now when we look at our numbers. The rollover, again, is something that's going to great. It's really going to help a lot of families I think. But, you know, a small percentage of Americans, unfortunately, even have a 529 college savings account. The percentage of those families who then have children who would be eligible for an ABLE account is even a smaller percentage. Again, while it will be significant for that very small percentage of families, it's just for the more typical ABLE account owner, many of these provisions, frankly, won't have a huge, huge amount of impact. But those that it will, will have significant changes and are exciting changes. In terms of to follow up -- Yep, go ahead. >> The other thing I see about that particular change is I think it makes a pretty powerful statement about aspirations and empowerment and, you know, looking at increased independence of persons with disabilities and, you know, having these accounts, letting them make their own choices and, again, saying encouraging employment and using those resources through an ABLE account. So it may not be used a lot right now. Hopefully, over time, as attitudes change, and many things change, you know, this will become perhaps a more useful tool for more people. But it does make a statement about encouraging employment and recognizing that people with disabilities, you know, can and are employed and have earned income. >> Right, right. And I know that you guys are working hard to iron all these out, and I know that the disability community and we're working in tandem. Maybe, Marty, you can give us some insight to that. >> Yeah. I'd like to say that, you know, there is some confusion. And as people say, it's new, it's a new law, and this is not unusual. But in our coalition at the national level and working with others, you know, we're working to try to figure these things out. And we want the program to be clarified. We want it, as David said earlier, to be user-friendly. And we're trying to figure out whether some of these things can be made as user-friendly as possible with clarification if possible from the IRS. That would be the quickest, fastest way to go, if that's possible. If that's not doable, you know, can it be done through regulations or do we need to get new statutory language? I mean, the other way might be is if it can come actually from the programs themselves. All of those things are on the table. Everybody's working hard to see where the clarifications might come from. But I think it's very important what's been said that everybody is working hard to clarify these things and simplify them and make sure that it works well. I would like to put on the table one thing that is important to clarify that has maybe been a source of confusion that has not necessarily come up that straightforwardly yet. And that is that people need to realize that when we talk about the dollars over $15,000 that are contributed to the account, we're talking about earnings, yes. And they are protected like all funds that go into the ABLE account, but they are protected as resources. They do not change the way the Social Security Administration views your earnings for purposes of the substantial gainful activity level. So just to keep that in mind. The Social Security statute was not changed. And so, earnings that go in, whether they go in under the $15,000 limit or over the $15,000 limit, are still looked at in terms of a substantial gainful activity level. That has not changed by [inaudible]. Possibly some confusion out there, some misunderstanding about what the intent of the law was or what was expected to be done by the statutory language. But the reality is that the Social Security act was not changed. So I just wanted to put that on the table. >> I think that's a good point. So that just means, basically, everything has remained the same. So as we've been asking questions, I know Michael has been here collecting some of the questions from our viewers, and I know that he wants to bring a couple up, so. >> I will try. I just appreciate the participation. We have over 150 questions that have come in and clearly not the time to take more than a few. But I'll try to take a few right now. One question, several questions were about a beneficiary having multiple ABLE accounts at the same time. The answer is no. Unlike 529 college savings plans, you're only allowed one account. Other questions that have come in from multiple people is, is there a benefit to being enrolled in an ABLE account that is in your own state versus another state. And maybe I'll ask the three state administrators. Mary, you want to try that one first? >> I'm sorry. What was that again? >> Okay. Is there a benefit to being enrolled in an ABLE account in my home state over choosing another state's ABLE program? >> So there may be. The biggest one would be whether your state has a state income tax deduction or credit for your contributions. There are, last count, six or eight states that have that. I don't know how many others might be considering it. So that would be one reason. And then, you know, obviously, you look at some may have other types of things, other waivers from perhaps state benefits, you know, needs-based benefits programs that apply only to that state. So yeah, as with college savings, you always want to look to your home state first I think to see whether there are tax or other reasons that make that the best choice and then balance that out with costs, with investment options and structure of other programs to see what makes the most sense for you. >> We would agree with that. >> Okay. Let me try, JJ, how about this question. And it may vary by state but maybe not. Do you have to submit a written request to withdraw money from an ABLE account, and how long does an individual have to wait to receive the requested amount? >> Great question. And the individual might be comparing this to what some of the requirements of the special needs trust are. You do not have to get written permission. You do not have to get as an account owner or an authorized individual on that account, you don't have to have permission to withdraw the funds or spend the funds. You don't have to give advance notice. It's one of the hallmarks of ABLE and one of the most exciting things about ABLE, as Mary mentioned and Dave, that this allows for self-direction and self-reliance and independence that our disability community hasn't known forever or for a very long time. >> All right. And let me go to another question about contributions. Dave, maybe you try this one. Any possibility that stock given by a grandparent would ever be eligible for direct contribution to an ABLE account? >> Boy, you give me the one that I have to say no to, Michael. I don't see a situation in the future where they're going to allow anything but cash contributions into ABLE accounts. And so, I think that is going to be limited. So right now and for the foreseeable future, unless something big changes, if someone wants to put money into an ABLE account, it needs to be a cash contribution. And I say cash. That doesn't mean physical dollar bills. It means that it needs to be more liquid. So it's not going to be real property like a home or let's say a stock like you mentioned there. >> Yeah. >> Right, right. Okay. Let's see. Quite a few questions about impact on housing, choice vouchers and whether or not an ABLE account savings is going to be included in the calculation of rent contributions. And the answer to that is we're still waiting for HUD to issue guidance. CMS, Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services have issued guidance. Social Security has issued guidance. U.S. Department of agriculture has issued guidance related to food assistance or called SNAP. But we are waiting on HUD. And there were also multiple questions about, I always mispronounce it. Is it FASFA? >> FASFA. >> FASFA, which is -- Okay, take it. Take it away. What do we know in terms of an ABLE account affecting financial aid? And I believe the answer to that one, too, is we're waiting. I do not believe we have clear guidance from the U.S. Department of Education. So that was another area, multiple questions. Many people asking about, we understand there are states that have moved to not put in force the Medicaid pay back. I'm implying by some of the questions that people think that if you're in one state, you're a resident let's say of Georgia, and the state of Pennsylvania has moved to not enforce the Medicaid payback provision, that it will help you in Georgia. And the answer to that is, unfortunately, no. For those states who have made efforts to pass laws that will not move forward on Medicaid payback. It is only for residents of their state, who also have to be eligible for ABLE accounts. Marty. >> It's your own state Medicaid agency that's going to bill your ABLE account for your services. So I don't think that it's going to help to shop around for a state where the state has chosen not to bill because your state Medicaid agency is going to do the billing. >> And here is another one for you, Marty. Wonderful world of Social Security law that you know. How does ABLE affect earned income versus assets for SSI? >> That's the one about the SGA level. The ABLE account protects assets, otherwise known in the Social Security world as resources. And that is what's protected under ABLE. But earned income is still treated as -- Social Security will look at it for the substantial gainful activity or SGA level. You can put earned income in the ABLE account, but they will count it to determine SGA level. >> Many questions came in about the relationship between special needs trusts and ABLE accounts. Many people asking can I have both. Yes. Is one better than the other? No one can answer that question because it would have to be qualified by your personal circumstances, your economic conditions, many, many factors. It probably tells us we should do another webinar again about the relationship between trusts and ABLE accounts. Here is one that I do not know the answer. I'll go to the three state program administrators. Is it anticipated that treasury will provide a technical correction to calculate the earnings as of the date of distribution instead of the last day of the calendar year like we see for 529 plans? Now there's one in the weeds. But Mary or JJ or Dave? >> I do not know the answer to that. >> I don't think we know. Nothing's happening. So that was I know a part of the discussion during the initial go around on, you know, the purposed regulations that were released back in 2015. We're hearing that, you know, treasury is working and anticipates having, you know, final regs They still have to go through sort of the comment period, you know, at some time. But that's undetermined. I don't see that as a technical correction. You know, it is the way it is. And we'll have to see, you know, have the regs come out or how folks can calculate it. So we just don't know. You know, I think we're looking at the same thing with the provisions of HR1 that passed in December. You know, treasury just has a lot on its plate, and they are resource constrained these days. So getting things like technical corrections, regulations and the like sometimes are difficult. Getting in the queue just can take some time. >> Michael, this is JJ. There's a correction I wanted to make to something earlier in the broadcast. So if we can give time for that, that would be great before we end. I know we've only got about a minute left. I may -- >> I'll just throw one more quick question because it's easy. I came in late, but do you have to receive Medicaid to be eligible for an ABLE account? Absolutely not. You do not have to be on Medicaid. JJ, go ahead with your correction. >> And nor do you have to be receiving SSI or SSDI. As long as you have that qualifying disability and age. I may have misheard, but just wanted to let folks know who are really still thinking about opening an ABLE account. I think I heard that you submit your medical diagnosis when you enroll in ABLE. And you don't submit the diagnosis. In fact, they don't want you to submit your diagnosis or your certification. You just need to attest to having the diagnosis and keep that document with you and available in case you are audited at any point so that you can show it. I may have misunderstood, but just in case, I wanted to reiterate that. Also just wanted to say that -- No worries. I do that all the time. And the other thing I just wanted to say is that with all the questions that we have and, you know, the changes that are taking place, I would recommend that when you're looking at and looking for information, go to your state's websites and always go to the National ABLE Resource Center page. It has a lot of great information. But you can look on, if you have an ABLE account, look on their webpage for updates. I know the Alliance will be regularly updating our main page, as well as our individual state pages, to let folks know what's happening, what changes have taken place as a result of the most recently legislation. So check the website, view our program regularly. >> Okay. Before Chris will sign us all off, I do want to let you know, as I said, over 150 questions. We probably took about a third of them in rapid fire. We will, over the next few weeks, try to put up a Q&A and try to answer questions that came in to us. As Chris said, many people asked about will this be archived. Yes, on the ablenrc.org website. And it will have both the slides, many people want the slides, and a transcript. It will all be there. And I'll turn it back to Chris. >> Thank you, Michael. And thank you to our panelists. I really appreciate everybody coming together. I think these changes are going to be something that's exciting and has a lot of potential to help a lot of account owners. I would encourage folks to understand that these programs are working very, very hard as is, the disability community, to answer some of these questions. But by and large, I don't see anything as a result of these changes that should deter anybody from being involved in ABLE and taking advantage of the immense benefits of being an ABLE account owner. Just as we finish, a couple quick announcements. The ABLE National Resource Center is looking for ABLE advisors. And we have an open application. You can read more about that on the website. But we're looking for parents of ABLE account owners and working age people with disability who have ABLE accounts to help better understand your needs and to give us some perspectives on how ABLE is changing your life. So please go to the website and learn more about how to submit an application for that. And lastly, just a quick announcement. Our February webinar will be February 22nd at the same time, 2:00 to 3:30 Eastern. And it's titled Understanding Disclosure Documents. And while that doesn't sound exciting, it really important. The webinar will assist potential ABLE account owners and current account owners in better understanding the importance of ABLE disclosure documents, of which I'm assuming will be updated. So it's a good time to understand those. And we'll walk through how to read those and understand them and what to look for. So with that, again, thank you to everybody who participated. Thank you to our panelists. And we will see you all again in one month, February 22nd. Thank you so much. Bye, bye. >> Thank you. >> Thanks.